Great post and data from Sr. RKC and exercise physiologist Kenneth Jay. Of course it confirms what I already knew but it is so good to get real data.
with 24kg snatches. This was just meant as a preliminary force/velocity testing on the force-platform but to me it confirmed what I believe to be true. The conclusions from this CANNOT be extrapolated to include other kettlebell weights- this have to be tested separately.I compared three types of kettlebell snatches:
1)Hard Style snatch
2)GS snatch
3)Power snatch from hang (no back swing and more like an Olympic snatch)
Calculations made from the sampled data are not easy to make so I have spent the last two hours trying to get something meaningful out of them and this is the results:
1)24kg Hard style snatch: Peak Force generation = 101,5 kg
2)24kg GS snatch: Peak force generation = 70,5 kg
3)24kg Pwr snatch from hang: Peak Force generation = 112 kg
Now what this data does is it confirms that when using the 24kg bell for Sports training (GPP etc) the GS style is inferior to the Hard style and the snatch from hang.
When the weight is so submaximal as a 24kg bell is, there is simply no point in doing GS because the main object is always to generate the highest power output. So unless you compete in GS don’t do GS style snatches. (as it is already pointed out during the RKC)
Now comparing the Hard style to the snatch from hang the power output is the highest (10,5kg more) when one snatches from the hang position. This is due to the fact that the bell travels in a much more vertical line and this kind of snatches involves the quads more which are important. However the difference between the two is not much. Doing snatches from hang is preferable if your sport only requires you to generate power a limited number of times. If your sport however, involves repeated bursts of explosion it makes sense to do the snatches hard style because the accumulated fatigue will be distributed between a larger amount of muscle mass (hips+quads) compared to snatches from hang (mostly quad dominant).
This is of course a theory that has to be validated by more testing (EMG activity etc.).Now all this may not be new knowledge to any of you but it is always nice to have theories validated (at least I think so…)I will continue to do Hard style snatches myself and the athletes I work with are NOT going to learn GS style at any point in their training. It is simply a waste of valuable training time to an athlete who uses the kb as a tool to do better in another power sport.All the best in your training and be ferocious!!!
/Kenneth Jay
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11 comments:
I read that today. Totally freakin' cool.
Makes Sense. Especially if increased power and speed are the goal. GS is great for endurance and of course competing in GS. How I stated in previous DD post, pick the style of Snatch that best matches your athletic objectives. For most athletes, learning to do the Hardstyle Snatch plus the Power Snatch from the hang are immensely valuable. More so than GS? I would say yes.
However, I am intrigued with the sheer numbers that the top GS athletes do and how they are able to stay so loose. I sometimes feel that I do so much gripping and forearm work that I end up trashing my elbows. There has to be a happy medium in there some place.
Great post!
franz,
the numbers the gs guys can do is a result of their specialization n their sport. they do remarkable numbers but it doesnt necessarily translate as well, I believe, to other sports,especially power based sports, as does the rkc hardstyle approach.
every sport has its secrets and unique techniques that make a world of difference IN THAT SPORT.
bottoms line though if something( too much grip tension) is hurting you you have to find another way.
squats are great but not for me, they kill me now. same with snatches. for me rep snatches arent worth the shoulder pain when I can get even MORE from just swings. but snatches for some are perfect.
its gotta be individualized to make any sense eh?
Completely and utterly meaningless. Unless you are Kenneth Jay, and doing them at the exact same time and same place he did them.
It's not science or anything even close to it, it's some guy stepping on a force plate and doing some snatches with a kettlebell. To do science requires a certain rigorous approach, not some half assed, ill-thought out attempt to justify an agenda.
Plus, force plates have limitations, and there are many things you can do that will change the numbers around. Like applying pressure with your toes at certain points, and using your quads with a little more emphasis than you might normally.
Now hook it up to a Tendo Unit or a MicroMuscle Lab and you might see something meaningful, or at least get some useful numbers.
I'm pretty sure Louie Simmons himself mentioned something about the uselessness of force plates to get anything like meaningful numbers somewhere.
its just common sense.doing a movement with as much speed and force as possible each rep is going to produce more force and power than doing just enough force to do the rep and no more.Having a force plate to confirm it is just than much better.
that being said I would love to see it hooked up to tendo unit. but again, just as louie says: DE day and ME are BOTH Max effort days.Just two different ways to produce the most force.
bottom line as well: Kenneth trains high level, real deal athletes, he is going to use what makes them better.
What drives me nuts, Mark, is that you know when something like this is weak.
And despite whatever credentials Kenneth Jay possesses, it's weak and it's just an attempt to further an agenda.
It's like you've pulled the wool over your own eyes.
well steve, what drive ME nuts is when you can't just accept the obvious. Of COURSE HS is going to produce more force than GS and the force plate is good enough for Dragomir Cirosilan and SHane Hamman at the Olympic training center to analyze his lifts, why wouldnt it be good enough to compare these two lifts?
there is no wool over my eyes perhaps just not enough experience with various types of lifting for you to understand the obvious differences between compensatory accelerating a movement and doing it with minimal force production for endurance purposes.Its SO obvious.
If you want to learn how to produce max power and force you do movements fast and with max power? Is that confusing? or an agenda?catch a clue.
KJ's experiment reminds me of Stephen J. Gould's book "The Mis-Measure of Man"...his experiment is fundamentally flawed. Snatch hard = more force; Snatch less hard = less force. Don't need force plates to figure that out and "style" is really irrelevant. Take 10 MS GS athletes and 10 RKCs and instruct the athletes to snatch a few reps as hard and fast as possible and record the results. My hypothesis is, little or no difference between the two groups. Why? Because the instructions aren't about "style" they are about effort.
Randy H.
I got your point Randy, but the key differnece is a GS athletes training centers not around 'moving the bell as fast and forcefully as possible but on using just enough effort to go the difference. The style used is dictated by the goal. and that is the point.
If the goal is to produce max force per rep( as per RKC style) one would NOT choose the looser,more segmented gs style.and that looser style of form,regardless of effort used would not translate as well into most sports as would the more rigid RKC style.
every tape I see of the mens GS snatch techniquea t the World level they are all moving much slower than the women( obviously because of the weight difference) but NO ONE is working at max speed.Yet the women are.
if the instructions to your hypothetical athletes include using your comp form I bet the force difference would be significant.and you must compare not just RKC but the strongest RKCs if you are going to pit them against MS gs athletes.
My point is the ssumption that there is one "GS style" of snatching is false. There is GS the sport and there is snatching. It is not an unimportant distinction. GS athletes and RKCs executing a maximal effort snatch will yield similar results becasue the task is the same. To say the GS athlete who does a max effort snatch is not doing a "GS" snatch is special pleading.
randy,
to me there is snatching for ten minutes and snatching( or swinging) for purely anaerobic intevals using compensatory acceleration and directed force.the time duration, more than anything else other than absolute strength in that exercise, will dictate the force output as well as the form.
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