Saturday, May 05, 2007

I've caught the snatch bug.

Again. Suprise surprise,lol. It's just such a cool movement it's hard to stay away. I do plan on approaching it much differently this time though. Instead of focusing on repetition snatches I will take a page out of Tracy's book and do alternating swing/snatch reps. This always puts me in good position to maximize momentum which keeps me snatching from my hips and the swing, instead of the arm.
The biceps and forearms just dont like it when I do olympic style snatches and I just cant seem to get the big swing I want with rep snatches. This might work. Plus as evidenced by wednesdays workout I really detest hi rep snatch sets.I dont need to cook my grip anymore than work already does.Opening up my forearms has had a lot to do with the releases in my shoulder as well.

36x5/5x2 sets( one swing, one snatch one transfer five times each arm)

53x8/8x5 sets
8 swings and 8 snatches per set
40 total swings
40 total snatches
80 total reps
4240 pounds

these felt great! This definitely puts me in an optimal hip position to snatch.excellent.shoulder feels fine.reps were fast and strong.

One Arm Swings
53x10/10x 5 set
100 reps
5300 lbs

Good to get some volume in

52 reps
3744 lbs

These got stronger each set.solid.

total reps= 232
total weight=13,284

Not a bad start back.

Leverage Presses
12kgx doubles both in and out
16 kg x singles both in and out

these are freaking HARD and VERY interesting.Caught this on Jason Browns site

really interesting exercise and right up my alley.The out position gets the triceps great and hardly any deltoid. Could be my next favoite exercise.


datsit, gotta stretch.


Royce said...

Oh Jeez!! That press looks wicked, of course I have to go try it now!!!

fawn friday said...

Aloha Mark! I have been looking at your blog regularly, but haven't made a comment as of yet.

I went back to my K'bell class today... what a walk in the park compared to last weekend! I haven't been looking at the mirror when I train all week... the class I took today has 3 mirrored walls, my form has improved by quite a lot.

My hands have almost totally healed. Thank you for taping, I was able to swing on Monday, and all week long actually! Snatched on Wednesday, I am relieved I didn't have to miss practice because of blister injuries.

Mark Reifkind said...

Hey Fawn! thanks for stopping by.and yes after the RKC workouts can be hard but they are always short in comparison,lol.glad your hands are good and you are most welcome.
so glad you got aaron his bell, he'll love it.

Randy said...

I reffed a GS meet today in Neptune NJ at the Greg Mihovich's Underground Gym. Lots of good performances. I decided after all the real competitors finished to do jump in and play: a 24kg snatch set (as a baseline, I haven't been snatching at all since the left shoulder started acting up in February)Did 50L/70R in 6:15 or so. Didn't push it real hard (no warmup), just a test set. With a little training, who knows?

Mark Reifkind said...

nice work randy. I would love a set of 50/50 with a 24 kg! My forearm gets so pumped up with reps that I would need a LOT of specific training to teach it not to pump.dont want to do reps THAT bad.
nIf you can do 50/50 with no training what do you think it would take to push you,rep wise?

Randy said...

I went up cold today. And it was 50/70. When I switched arms I had gotten "warmed up". I think the optimum pace for me is around 20 RPMs; the quicker pace, the more the bell is in motion, the less time I have to hold onto it, the easier it is on my grip and the better my breathing pattern is. The 70 side was much easier than the 50 side; the first minute today was only 15RPMS and it felt "heavy" . So I think if I had had time for a warmup and had a sweat going and my breathing synched I could have been 70/70 today.
For training in the future: maybe three sets each arm of between 20 and 40 reps, 3 days a week would in a month's time produce 85/85 in 9 minutes. Second month, same kind program of 20-50 reps; 95/95 at the end of the 2nd month in 10 minutes.

Joefitness said...

Oh boy, here we Good approach alternating. I do like the idea and I too believe that a good swing helps the snatch.

Mark Reifkind said...

randy, I assume you use gs form on those. nice work.

joe,don't worry I am not going to get caught up in doing ssst or even rep snatches. just want to keep some in the mix, if my shoulder can take it.still focused mainly on swings.

Randy said...

Rif, I snatch like I snatch. Just the pace changes. My position is that RKC/Hardstyle is a training concept not a set of bell handling techniques.

Mark Reifkind said...

randy, when you try to snatch each rep as fast as possible( with a legal lockout) does your form change from when you are going ten minutes?Is it just a faster version of the slower paced rep?

Randy said...

My intent is to make the form as consistent possible regardless of the speed. But no doubt there are some differences...when I warm up with a light barbell snatch I start with less "oomph" and speed but as I loosen up eventually try to move as fast as I can...but I try to say technically consistent regardless of speed. I learned to KB snatch from the original RKC tape and transposing as much of barbell snatching as I could. So for me it's about vertical bell path and consistent reps.

Here's an ancient post of mine (6/2001) from the DD forum and Pavel's response: "I was taught for olympic two hands snatching to keep the wrist flexed ( palm flexed towards the bottom of the forearm ) lats tight and triceps tight during the pull and explosion phase up to the completion of the pull under, at the pull under point the wrist is flexed top of hand towards the top of the forearm ( screwing oneself under the bar ) I have been sticking to this form with one hand KB snatches and notice the bell stays nice and close to the body...(I do follow the party line on keeping the wrist straight at the top/catch position, though). The wrist, lat and tri flex seem to add leverage and power. I also shrug at the top of the pull, which adds further momentum to the bell. Are these technical"fine points" acceptable when transferred to KB, or do they undermine what KB has to offer by mimicking the Olympic form?"

"Com. RCH, great tehnique, like putting on a sweater. Usually KBers arrive to something similar from practice of a swing like snatch w/o trying."

I like to use the "martial power drill" we use at the RKC as an analogy. I try to keep the form same, but apply less power. I still tinker with it...balance points, timing, degree of leg bend and if I am doing a longer set it is a constant process of adjusting on the fly...trying to groove every rep and stay "in the pocket" as fatigue sets in. I don't like pushing after the form starts to break down. I think one key "efficiency" aspect that gets overlooked in GS is how consistently the top level lifters execute every rep. If there is one major energy saving trick (and injury preventing one) it is consistency of movement.
Sorry for the long posts.

Mark Reifkind said...

As you said about your form lifting bars off the floor, you use the same form just with less 'oomph'. I agree.Heres the question I posed to Tom on another post:

"as far as optimal technique, how would you teach someone to bend over to pick something heavy up?

By bending at the waist,letting the lower back round,not shifting the load onto the hips, exhaling on the descent and not incorporating the entire posterior chain? I wouldnt think so."

whenI teach the swing for non specific purposes( i.e non gs) I would use correct lifting biomechanics( the opposite of what I described above). From what I can tell from gs biomechanics their is little hip and leg involvement. Most of the movements resemble stiff legged deadlifts with round backs. How is that optimal lifting biomechancics.

I also learned the snatch from the original RKC dvd and I already knew how to barbell snatch( 70 kg power snatch) and used the close to the body style. But I still sat back, kept my back as arched as possbible. used diaphramatic breathing and compression and compensatory acceleration on the ascent.

I now use a straight arm version when I snatch as the close arm one bothers my biceps and my shoulders.

I liken the snatch as a swing that almost goes to far, just when it floats i punch through the handle, almost like flipping my wrist to swing around a hi bar in gymnastics. This takes all the stress off my biceps and puts even more focus on developing hip snap and using the swing to get the bell overhead.
Yes it's a longer stroke but I dont care.The purpose of the swing or snatch to me is develop specific qualities ( power and force production, rfd,esplosive strength,etc) not just do a specific number.
I think your style of snatching is great and teach it often to many.
I think the key is what is the optimal biomechanical position to lift and swings the bells" are you focuses(a s a coach) on integrating hip,back and leg positions, as in a good OL clean or dl or an optimal path for the bell to swing?
AMount of power produciton (Comp accel.) will, of course , vary according to desired need of the set/rep/program design.

as far as consisitnecy in doing rep after rep, well I htink that goes without saying. Thats as much conditioning and focus as anything.

please dont apologize for thelength of your posts.this is great debate.

Randy said...

I know for long sets of snatches I have adopted an anatomical breathing pattern: I exhale sharply at lockout then sharply inhale. Sharply exhale right at the bottom of the stroke and inhale sharply on the way up. It works best at brisk pacing.

For myself, a slightly bent knee and following the bell back does load my hams and glutes better...but my biomechanical operating theory is this: the best vertical jumpers (and standing long jumpers) will use glute/hams as primary movers and the quads "finish" the knee extension. (Dan John has demo'd this in his workshops for O lifting) So, I try to keep hip translation as vertical as possible and a shallow knee bend helps with this.

It is true that many GS lifters don't keep perfectly flat or arched lower backs on snatches...there may be some elastic qualities they are making use of...and they have developed very strong backs along the way to be able to do that. Advanced.

The relaxation thing is relative and it is strength based...I think it is more a selective, coordinated relaxation of antagonists...I can execute a more relaxed snatch with a 16 than a 24 and have bear down even more with the 32. Why? I don't have the requisite strength yet to be as selectively relaxed with the 32's as with the 24s or the 16s.

I think both kettlebell camps can arrive at similar results athletically speaking but do so from opposite sides of the spectrum: AKC is teaching relaxation at the is analagous to a soft style martial art. RKC, like a hard style teaches overall tension and muscle control first, and when muscle awareness and control is achieved, then relaxation of the antagonist groups is possible.
Whose kung fu is better? I think it is a meaningless question. Superman or Batman? Lion or shark?

Mark Reifkind said...

great comment randy and as always, a thoughtful centric position that makes a lot of sense.

couple things though( of course :))
For most regular( read non athletes) like the people I train everyday, anatomical breathing under load would be considered quite an advanced skill,with considerable risk of back injury with almost no reasonable upside.

I could never justify starting someone with that technique.

Second, it was my understanding that glute activation was inhibited with a round lumbar spine( and that has been my experience as well) and that the tighter the lumbar arch was kept the easier the hips (glutes) could extend the hip.
Not purposely sitting back will result in most bending right over. You only get to 45 deg of flexion till the erectors shut off electrically and the ligaments are loaded.Again, not for beginners or general training.

I agree with your martial art analogy hard vs soft and how both get to the other side, just from a different starting point. thats why I wish the two camps could 'just get along' with mutual respect.

and I also agree how relaxation ability is totally tied to strength. Of course if you can snatch the beast easily for reps the 24 kg is going to feel like a toy.Most of the people I work with need strength and the ability to generate and coordinate tension in their bodies than they need endurance.

More people do low intensity endurance training than anything elseI encounter. They need to learn to be stronger.